tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post116778953791670530..comments2022-04-27T23:07:59.833-04:00Comments on Conversi ad Dominum: LCD ConfessionalismFr John W Fentonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01283787316830250866noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post-1167839834407221522007-01-03T10:57:00.000-05:002007-01-03T10:57:00.000-05:00Thanks for the comment. Obviously the context in w...Thanks for the comment. Obviously the context in which you are coming from this is different from the one in which I made my post. You seem to be approaching it as "what does this say about the LCMS's relations to the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox ideas of church polity and its faithfulness or not to the Augustana?" Had I been pursuing that question I would have put up a differnt post. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, (to respond) I guess you meant #14, for #4, right? -- although #4 IS a great place to start any discussion about the church, I'd agree :^)<BR/><BR/>Assuming that's the case, in the Apologia for that article I read that "canonical ordination" is seen as derived from "church-polity and the grades in the Church" of which in turn it is said that "they have been made by human authority." <BR/><BR/>By implicit contrast with "canonical ordination", "right calling" is not a human ordinance but a divine one. Yet it is specifically defined as being not the same as the bundle of laws and practices defined as "canonical ordination". <BR/><BR/>Given the overall context of Evangelical theology, such a divine ordinance can only be gotten from Scripture. Laying on of hands by one who already has such a call to one who has newly received it is found there, but not any decrees about three orders or particular forms.<BR/><BR/>Indeed in article #28 we see bishop defined as "those to whom has been committed the ministry of the Word and the Sacraments" (l. 21) and are treated as equivalent to pastors in l. 30 and following.<BR/><BR/>To me all this says "<B>relative</B> indifference" -- in other words, not total indifference, but restriction of divinely ordained church order to one thing: the legitimately called gospel minister (whether you call him pastor or bishop or whatever). That's more indifferent than the Anglican or Presbyterian (or Orthodox, obviously) order, and less indifferent than, say, the Pentecostal one. So I'll stand by "relative indifference". <BR/><BR/>As for liturgy, I agree with what Josh said, and if you want to see my post on Cyril of Jerusalem (based on Dix's "Shape of the Liturgy"), it is <A HREF="http://threehierarchies.blogspot.com/2005/08/cyril-of-jerusalems-purpose-driven.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.CPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06803551934971285722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post-1167829157831804242007-01-03T07:59:00.000-05:002007-01-03T07:59:00.000-05:00The very same Chris Atwood had a post a long time ...The very same Chris Atwood had a post a long time ago detailing how a few staples of Orthodox and Catholic liturgies (such as the iconostasis) were basically started by Cyril of Jerusalem. So much for never editing liturgies. There's too much liturgical variance across time and space (my own research into the use of Gloria in Excelsis was enough to convince me of that) to buy into this idea that there is a single, unchanging liturgy.<BR/><BR/>And, as the ideas of sacrifice in the medieval Canon of the Mass aren't entirely amenable to Orthodoxy, I don't see how you can condemn changing the canon and not affirm the theology of that same canon at the same time.Fearsome Piratehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12171985273546955313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post-1167793548304070192007-01-02T22:05:00.000-05:002007-01-02T22:05:00.000-05:00Dear John,About your last point, it must also be n...Dear John,<BR/><BR/>About your last point, it must also be noted that the same propensity is in evidence in the Orthodox Missal, above all in the St. Tikhon Liturgy, but to a degree also in the Liturgy of St. Gregory. <BR/><BR/>Pax!William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.com