tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post8282217407017855513..comments2022-04-27T23:07:59.833-04:00Comments on Conversi ad Dominum: Is it Really Worth It?Fr John W Fentonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01283787316830250866noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post-19164060848107115932007-12-17T13:27:00.000-05:002007-12-17T13:27:00.000-05:00Pr Beisel,An interesting discussion indeed! I espe...Pr Beisel,<BR/><BR/>An interesting discussion indeed! I especially appreciate your comment that "the poor have the gospel preached to them" is the unusual climax to the list. Building on this comment and taking into account your first statement, perhaps you'll permit the following two thoughts.<BR/><BR/>1. Perhaps one could more readily see "the poor" as applying (a) to the disciples St John sent (as St Peter Chrysologus & Luther see it), (b) to the gathered crowd (Mt 11.7), and likewise (c) to those who hear these words during the Mass. Certainly (a) and (b) are part of the immediate context.<BR/><BR/>2. If "both ways require speculation" (a premise I grant for the sake of discussion), then it would seem to follow that one would speculate more safely and less doubtfully if one follows the "sanctified speculation" of those great lights who have gone before (be it following the consensus of the church or the consensus of one's own tradition).Fr John W Fentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01283787316830250866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post-91841130131293567062007-12-17T13:05:00.000-05:002007-12-17T13:05:00.000-05:00Thanks for giving Luther's view. Both ways require...Thanks for giving Luther's view. Both ways require speculation on the part of the preacher. The text just does not say. Of course, the main point of the pericope is the revelation to John (and disciples) of the works of the Christ. One would think, though, that the "raising of the dead" would be the culmination of the works, but it is not. It is "the poor have the good news preached to them." Maybe that has something to say about John's condition.Rev. Paul Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678751687495292703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post-8292743108577266812007-12-17T10:32:00.000-05:002007-12-17T10:32:00.000-05:00Addendum:In his Kirchenpostille, Luther agrees wit...Addendum:<BR/><BR/>In his Kirchenpostille, Luther agrees with the consensus of the church fathers:<BR/><BR/>Why then did John ask this question? Answer: It was not done without good reasons In the first place, it is certain that John asked it for the sake of his disciples, as they did not yet hold Christ to be the one he really was. And John did not come in order to make disciples and draw the people to himself, but to prepare the way for Christ, to lead everybody to Christ and to make all the people subject to him. (<A HREF="http://www.orlutheran.com/html/mlsemt11.html/" REL="nofollow">Electronic source</A>)Fr John W Fentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01283787316830250866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post-5617036652301331922007-12-17T10:07:00.000-05:002007-12-17T10:07:00.000-05:00Pr Beisel,Thank you for taking the time to read my...Pr Beisel,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for taking the time to read my blog and post a comment.<BR/><BR/>In response, I would argue that there is a significant difference between St Thomas & St John the Baptist. St John's singular task was to announce that Jesus is the Coming One, which he did from the womb, and before and after Jesus' baptism. St John also had the singular blessing of hearing the Father and seeing the Spirit while baptizing the Son. St Thomas, on the other hand (with all the disciples) displayed moments of weakness prior to announcing his doubt (e.g., when he forsook the Lord and fled).<BR/><BR/>No doubt, one could argue that at in the grip of prison and certain death, St John the Baptist wavered, and was grasping for surety. (This latter point, of course, raises the question of whether surety is the key denoter of faith.) However, given both the narrow and wider context in the Scriptural witness, many more church fathers have concluded (unlike Luther) that St John himself was not doubting, but either that he was voicing the doubt his disciples were afraid to voice, or was using the "moment" to urge his disciples once again to look to Christ.Fr John W Fentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01283787316830250866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21841592.post-11076626370538131672007-12-16T23:57:00.000-05:002007-12-16T23:57:00.000-05:00It's not that it makes me "feel better" knowing th...It's not that it makes me "feel better" knowing that he is "more human." Rather, like Thomas' doubt, it brings glory to Christ by providing the opportunity to reveal himself.Rev. Paul Beiselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678751687495292703noreply@blogger.com